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r0ssr0ss · 08-04-2004, 08:20 AM

i have a question on how they create such detailed wireframes
im pretty new to lightwave, i know all the basics and such but i followed the create creature tutorial. i made a creature but its such low poly. how do they make it like

as an example from this site, the one on the left. with what seems to be millions of polygons so i can put better and higher detail?
i dont want to sound pathetic or anythign but i seriously cant find it on the next, i mean do you actually model it out that detailed, if so that'd taked years... their must be a quicker way to do this right...
thank in advance

Mark · 08-04-2004, 08:45 AM

There is. If you model as subpatches, then there's no need to add this many polygons. However, if you really want or need to add this much detail, then you can freeze your subpatch model in modeller which will convert it back to a high poly mesh dependant on your subdivision settings. You can also render from Layout in wireframe mode, which will cause it to show the model after subdivision has been applied to a subpatch model, which kind of has the same effect.

r0ssr0ss · 08-04-2004, 08:52 AM

trying not to sound like a noob LOL
how do you subdivision and subpatch?

is that the TAB key?
because when i press that it doesn't add any polygons it just smoothes them.

r0ssr0ss · 08-04-2004, 09:00 AM

what i mean is, like in the normalmaps shader tutorial there is a zombie like body (or mr. gray as he calls him) and the detail level is so high that you can see the ribs, veins, and even nipples. and with the low poly's i have i cant do that kind of stuff, but i dont know how to make enough poly's for it to work without literally dragging out millions of them.
i know alot of you are prolly laughing at me but everyone has to start somewhere.

Mark · 08-04-2004, 11:39 AM

Subpatches are indeed created with the tab key.

You won't actually see the polygons created in Modeller since the subpatches represent the surfaces, but perhaps this explanation will clear things up for you.

When Lightwave creates a subpatch (or more precisely a subdivision surface - the clue is in the name

) it is adding a specified number of polygons to your model based on the subdivision settings, and smoothing them based on a smoothing algorithm that creates tangents to the surface normals for each polygon.

In Layout, you have two subdivision settings for an object - the display and the render subdivision setting. The one you need to be most concerned with for renders is obviously the render subdivision setting. If this is set to (say) 10 then what happens is each polygon in your mesh is subdivided and smoothed 10 times, yielding 100 polygons in place of the single one you have modelled. Finally, before being rendered, the mesh is then triangulated (since triangles cannot be non-planar, this prevents smoothing errors), thus your final polygon renders as 200 triangles. This algorithm is applied to every polygon in your mesh.

If you set the display subpatch level to a reasonably high level, then set the view mode for layout to wireframe or front face wireframe, then you'll see the results of the subdivision/triangulation for yourself.

r0ssr0ss · 08-04-2004, 06:28 PM

thank you so much for clearing that up.
but...
how do i then bring that subpatched version back into modeler so i can add finer amounts of deatail to it?

Mark · 09-04-2004, 10:48 AM

You don't. Once you've frozen a model in Modeller, then subpatching it is nigh impossible again (even with a beast of a machine).

Anyhow, there's no need to do that. Simply add more geometry where you need it to your mesh in modeller before taking it across to layout.

r0ssr0ss · 09-04-2004, 05:32 PM

in the normalmap tutorial how did he get so many poly's in modeler then?
( EXAMPLE )
i took that print screen in modeler, and that was'n't with the tab key pressed, did he actually go through and create every poly manually?
i love how he put the detail in the ribs and such. i have a basic model designed but i want to be able to put that kind of detail in but i cant with how few poly's i have.

leroy3rd · 09-04-2004, 05:40 PM

I JUST figured out what you meant! Ok, after you apply subdivision surfaces in Modeler (tab), go to the Construct Tab and select the Freeze button (Cntrl D). That should do the trick.

-LeRoy3rd

r0ssr0ss · 09-04-2004, 05:51 PM

thanks alot!
its totally appreciated!
now hopefully i can add the detail i've been hoping for, when its done i'll post a print screen to show you how it turned out.

08-04-2004, 08:20 AM	#1
r0ssr0ss Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: hamilton, ON, CA Posts: 20	wireframe question i have a question on how they create such detailed wireframes im pretty new to lightwave, i know all the basics and such but i followed the create creature tutorial. i made a creature but its such low poly. how do they make it like as an example from this site, the one on the left. with what seems to be millions of polygons so i can put better and higher detail? i dont want to sound pathetic or anythign but i seriously cant find it on the next, i mean do you actually model it out that detailed, if so that'd taked years... their must be a quicker way to do this right... thank in advance

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08-04-2004, 08:45 AM	#2
Mark Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sunbury, UK Posts: 2,339	There is. If you model as subpatches, then there's no need to add this many polygons. However, if you really want or need to add this much detail, then you can freeze your subpatch model in modeller which will convert it back to a high poly mesh dependant on your subdivision settings. You can also render from Layout in wireframe mode, which will cause it to show the model after subdivision has been applied to a subpatch model, which kind of has the same effect.

08-04-2004, 08:52 AM	#3
r0ssr0ss Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: hamilton, ON, CA Posts: 20	trying not to sound like a noob LOL how do you subdivision and subpatch? is that the TAB key? because when i press that it doesn't add any polygons it just smoothes them.

08-04-2004, 09:00 AM	#4
r0ssr0ss Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: hamilton, ON, CA Posts: 20	what i mean is, like in the normalmaps shader tutorial there is a zombie like body (or mr. gray as he calls him) and the detail level is so high that you can see the ribs, veins, and even nipples. and with the low poly's i have i cant do that kind of stuff, but i dont know how to make enough poly's for it to work without literally dragging out millions of them. i know alot of you are prolly laughing at me but everyone has to start somewhere.

08-04-2004, 11:39 AM	#5
Mark Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sunbury, UK Posts: 2,339	Subpatches are indeed created with the tab key. You won't actually see the polygons created in Modeller since the subpatches represent the surfaces, but perhaps this explanation will clear things up for you. When Lightwave creates a subpatch (or more precisely a subdivision surface - the clue is in the name ) it is adding a specified number of polygons to your model based on the subdivision settings, and smoothing them based on a smoothing algorithm that creates tangents to the surface normals for each polygon. In Layout, you have two subdivision settings for an object - the display and the render subdivision setting. The one you need to be most concerned with for renders is obviously the render subdivision setting. If this is set to (say) 10 then what happens is each polygon in your mesh is subdivided and smoothed 10 times, yielding 100 polygons in place of the single one you have modelled. Finally, before being rendered, the mesh is then triangulated (since triangles cannot be non-planar, this prevents smoothing errors), thus your final polygon renders as 200 triangles. This algorithm is applied to every polygon in your mesh. If you set the display subpatch level to a reasonably high level, then set the view mode for layout to wireframe or front face wireframe, then you'll see the results of the subdivision/triangulation for yourself.

08-04-2004, 06:28 PM	#6
r0ssr0ss Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: hamilton, ON, CA Posts: 20	thank you so much for clearing that up. but... how do i then bring that subpatched version back into modeler so i can add finer amounts of deatail to it?

09-04-2004, 10:48 AM	#7
Mark Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sunbury, UK Posts: 2,339	You don't. Once you've frozen a model in Modeller, then subpatching it is nigh impossible again (even with a beast of a machine). Anyhow, there's no need to do that. Simply add more geometry where you need it to your mesh in modeller before taking it across to layout.

09-04-2004, 05:32 PM	#8
r0ssr0ss Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: hamilton, ON, CA Posts: 20	in the normalmap tutorial how did he get so many poly's in modeler then? ( EXAMPLE ) i took that print screen in modeler, and that was'n't with the tab key pressed, did he actually go through and create every poly manually? i love how he put the detail in the ribs and such. i have a basic model designed but i want to be able to put that kind of detail in but i cant with how few poly's i have.

09-04-2004, 05:40 PM	#9
leroy3rd Lifetime Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA, USA Posts: 295	I JUST figured out what you meant! Ok, after you apply subdivision surfaces in Modeler (tab), go to the Construct Tab and select the Freeze button (Cntrl D). That should do the trick. -LeRoy3rd

09-04-2004, 05:51 PM	#10
r0ssr0ss Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: hamilton, ON, CA Posts: 20	thanks alot! its totally appreciated! now hopefully i can add the detail i've been hoping for, when its done i'll post a print screen to show you how it turned out.